OST-028: Redline it baby....
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- oldeskewltoy
- Posts: 242
- Joined: Thu Jun 20, 2013 10:17 pm
OST-028: Redline it baby....
Yes... I know how to count, OST-027 hasn't been forgotten...
So... onto OST-028 Redline it baby...
I get a tub from Fed Ex.... yes a tub
As I unpack.... the goodies reveal themselves
Dig a bit further.... note the cam cover studs poking through??
Well the cam boxes were on top - note the punch marks in the cam outer packaging. No harm, no foul - the inner packaging, in this case, was not damaged, and neither were the cams.
also worth noting... the Redline DCOE manifold, along with the T3 TVIS delete plate.
My audience tends to enjoy my little quizzes.....
length of intake port - mounting surface to back edge of intake valve = 4.1" (104mm)
thickness of T3 adapter = .9" (23mm)
The Redline DCOE manifold = 2.1"(53mm) Do to spacing... cyl 1 and 4 have a heavy taper and so valve #2 and #7 actually measure 2.35" (59mm).
The length of a DCOE (without velocity stack) = 4.64" (118mm)
Cams... Tomei Poncams - 264 duration (3500-8000) peak torque @ 5500
Sooooo... my question to you all is.... Does my client need/want to keep, the TVIS delete plate???
more to come.....
So... onto OST-028 Redline it baby...
I get a tub from Fed Ex.... yes a tub
As I unpack.... the goodies reveal themselves
Dig a bit further.... note the cam cover studs poking through??
Well the cam boxes were on top - note the punch marks in the cam outer packaging. No harm, no foul - the inner packaging, in this case, was not damaged, and neither were the cams.
also worth noting... the Redline DCOE manifold, along with the T3 TVIS delete plate.
My audience tends to enjoy my little quizzes.....
length of intake port - mounting surface to back edge of intake valve = 4.1" (104mm)
thickness of T3 adapter = .9" (23mm)
The Redline DCOE manifold = 2.1"(53mm) Do to spacing... cyl 1 and 4 have a heavy taper and so valve #2 and #7 actually measure 2.35" (59mm).
The length of a DCOE (without velocity stack) = 4.64" (118mm)
Cams... Tomei Poncams - 264 duration (3500-8000) peak torque @ 5500
Sooooo... my question to you all is.... Does my client need/want to keep, the TVIS delete plate???
more to come.....
Last edited by oldeskewltoy on Mon Jul 21, 2014 11:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: OST-028: Redline it baby....
That looks exciting!
- oldeskewltoy
- Posts: 242
- Joined: Thu Jun 20, 2013 10:17 pm
Re: OST-028: Redline it baby....
http://s-86.com/article_intake.php
http://www.chrysler300club.com/uniq/all ... theory.htm
http://www.team-integra.net/forum/blogs ... tions.html
So... now with more information.... which is better.... keep the T3 delete, or discard it???
VERY simplified - because the valves open and close the intake charge is actually moving back and forth, or more accurately a pressure wave is moving back and forth inside the intake and the port. What I'm attempting to do is either add, or subtract the .9" of the delete plate to better match the intake length to the desired peak torque point (or as close as possible).
Shorter isn't always better.....
that's the theory....
http://www.chrysler300club.com/uniq/all ... theory.htm
http://www.team-integra.net/forum/blogs ... tions.html
So... now with more information.... which is better.... keep the T3 delete, or discard it???
from another forum wrote:I'mma saaaayyy..... No he doesn't need it because of the lengths of the adapters and DCOEs.
Did you get a chance to read the ramtheory link? What I'm trying to do is back up the cams peak torque, by attempting to time the intake wave oscillations so that @ 5500 as the cam begins to come on its peak, I can add a bit of ram theory to better maximize that rpm band....from another forum wrote:Ummm... In terms of runner length and design, wouldn't it be better to go with the dcoe only?
VERY simplified - because the valves open and close the intake charge is actually moving back and forth, or more accurately a pressure wave is moving back and forth inside the intake and the port. What I'm attempting to do is either add, or subtract the .9" of the delete plate to better match the intake length to the desired peak torque point (or as close as possible).
Shorter isn't always better.....
from another forum wrote:Thanks for the info OST! I think I learned a lot.
If I did the math correctly, you want to leave the TVIS delete in for the ideal runner length of ~11.65". With that length the pressure wave would travel the length of the runner exactly 8 times from intake valve opening to intake valve opening for maximum ram effect @5500 rpm.
that's the theory....
- oldeskewltoy
- Posts: 242
- Joined: Thu Jun 20, 2013 10:17 pm
Re: OST-028: Redline it baby....
Since I'm not building the engine, nor installing it, testing it is unlikely for me, but is an option for my client.from another forum wrote:What about testing both? Or make up the difference with velocity stack length?
Velocity stack length can help tune things, but it is usually better to have the throttle plate[s] placed further away from the valve then closer to it - typically higher air velocity.
no argument... BUT the 16V 4AGE is far more sorted then... say a 20V 4AGE. The 16V is easier to determine because if it.same author as above quote wrote: What looks best on paper isn't always what is fastest, or best feeling.
same author as above quote wrote: What is the owner wanting out of it?
By the way... if you haven't yet figured it out... or surmised it... this client is no longer running those Wiseco's, he will be running the very first set of the OST/JE Asym pistons -early client email wrote:I am building a largeport and was
looking to get some head work done. On this build the block and crank are
from a 20v st, also bc rods and 11.1:1 wiseco pistons. I will be running
poncams. Im not looking for anything too crazy, just looking for your basic
job really. I am sure the chambers need work. Currently the head needs
decking
more to come....
- oldeskewltoy
- Posts: 242
- Joined: Thu Jun 20, 2013 10:17 pm
Re: OST-028: Redline it baby....
see below....from another forum wrote:Oh, absolutely. A lot more development in the 16v. Much easier to predict. Especially when you're close to someone who's probably got more man hours into development for it than everyone on this board combined.oldeskewltoy wrote:no argument... BUT the 16V 4AGE is far more sorted then... say a 20V 4AGE. The 16V is easier to determine because if it.
Heh, ok.... I can't speak to your experiences... or "others" as you put it...from a different forum wrote:i'd rather have the Wiseco's.
JE can suck it from personal experience.
others i know have had issues as well.
they switched to CP. no longer crack pistons.
Since I have no direct piston building/design experience, I based my decision on what I saw @ the shop that builds these (4AGE engines) for a living...
In the 6 years I've been going to Loynings... I've never seen them use anything else... but JE Pistons
Head should be back on Monday from getting pressure checked....
more to come....
Last edited by oldeskewltoy on Mon Jul 21, 2014 11:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
- oldeskewltoy
- Posts: 242
- Joined: Thu Jun 20, 2013 10:17 pm
Re: OST-028: Redline it baby....
The client said the person he bought it from had cleaned and pressure checked it. It is clean, but for some reason **IF** it wasn't pressure checked $1000 worth of porting will be for naught... so for $60 we had it re-checked.from another forum wrote:Looks perty.
The head had serious work done before pressure checking? Or is this a post work extra check? I also consider pen-dye worthwhile in addition. You have opinion on it?
Can't wait to see what the performance looks like.
thank you for that.... The Tomei Poncam dyno shows peak @ 6000, it also shows that the peak is preceded by the climb to the peak 500 rpm early... @ 5500.same poster as above wrote:As this is similar to my build, I'd guess peak torque is closer to 6200rpm. I imagine a fully optimized motor with OS valves running the poncams could come in around 180+hp crank, and on that alone TVIS delete is probably a good call.
I wanna disable my TVIS soon enough to compare low end response.
My purpose for trying to get the intake length a bit longer is to attempt to aid the torque rise... and in so doing offer the client a very strong mid range to peak rpm powerband.
Your intake length is closer to 17.5" (4.1head + .9TVIS + 12.5intake manifold to plenum) @ what rpm point does that length favor??
Just doing a quick bit of basic math shows 17.5" is not a clean equation for an intake pulse @ 5500. 17.5 does not divide 93 without a remainder, it does divide cleanly by 87.5, or 105
Maybe we can get one of our other math wizards to give us the rpm levels those 2 numbers calculate out too......
- oldeskewltoy
- Posts: 242
- Joined: Thu Jun 20, 2013 10:17 pm
Re: OST-028: Redline it baby....
The head pressure checked out fine....
she now carries her new serial number....
deburring..... these are the 2 exhaust valve bucket cradles from #2 cyl
not multiply that by 8...
more to come.....
she now carries her new serial number....
deburring..... these are the 2 exhaust valve bucket cradles from #2 cyl
not multiply that by 8...
more to come.....
- oldeskewltoy
- Posts: 242
- Joined: Thu Jun 20, 2013 10:17 pm
Re: OST-028: Redline it baby....
Now that the pistons are finalized and being built, its time to return my focus towards the head.
....looking at the problem from a different perspective....
The red lines represent the air path from the carb mount flange to the valves. The carb spacing is wider than the ports, and leads to the awkward set up you see.........
So I got to thinking..... what if.....
So last night I made this......
besides showing the mismatches between manifold, delete plate and head... it does do what I was thinking.... AND it dramatizes what the problem is...
I'm just not sure.... so I'll be getting a few opinions.........
To answer a few questions up front... 1) nothing has been ported yet so these are not the final pieces... 2) The rubber would still not be the final part The rubber would be the mold to make the final part. Each piece would have an external screw, as well as epoxy for final mounting.....?????
oldeskewltoy wrote:
The Redline DCOE manifold.... Do to spacing... cyl 1 and 4 have a heavy taper and so valve #2 and #7 actually measure 2.35" (59mm).
....looking at the problem from a different perspective....
The red lines represent the air path from the carb mount flange to the valves. The carb spacing is wider than the ports, and leads to the awkward set up you see.........
So I got to thinking..... what if.....
So last night I made this......
besides showing the mismatches between manifold, delete plate and head... it does do what I was thinking.... AND it dramatizes what the problem is...
I'm just not sure.... so I'll be getting a few opinions.........
To answer a few questions up front... 1) nothing has been ported yet so these are not the final pieces... 2) The rubber would still not be the final part The rubber would be the mold to make the final part. Each piece would have an external screw, as well as epoxy for final mounting.....?????
- oldeskewltoy
- Posts: 242
- Joined: Thu Jun 20, 2013 10:17 pm
Re: OST-028: Redline it baby....
I'm not sure if I'm chasing imaginary, or real results.... as I said I'll be asking more from a few people I confer with.from another forum wrote: how about making a flow test of the versions with and without TVIS delete? I know it's a lot of work but might be worth it to see a tendancy as well as difference between the outer and inner ports.
Also in this case staggered intake lenghts (trumpets) might be an option.
As can be seen below, and as noted in the above post, the entire intake needs to be manipulated/adjusted, and then blended as one
black arrows - show direction of incoming air
solid blue lines - show areas to be ported
dashed blue line represents - the amount the manifold needs to be moved up.
So it is vital to determine the actual location of the manifold... in relation to the T3 delete plate, and then once they are mounted as one, to determine the T3 plate on the head.
So using 2 long bolts I fasten the manifold to the T3 plate set them as carefully as I can ( aligning the bottom port edges to be as flush as possible through all 4 ports) and them tightening the bolts to lock the 2 together.
Then I pick 2 points in the flange, one between cyl 1 and 2, the other between 3 and 4, that I can drill 2 small (3/32") holes... through the manifold and into the T3 plate. Then, using 3/32" x 1" roll(tension) pins I mount the manifold to the T3 plate in one place.
{note far left port in manifold(bottom in photo) has been ported to size, while the other 3 ports await...}
This, the roll pin mounts, will allow me to repeatedly mount and dismount the manifold from the T3 plate and then reaffix them in the same place, time after time.
As is typical with the T3 plate it is the overall size of the gasket... NOT the port...
so when laid over the intake... you can see the bottom edge, and the top edge of the head are in the airstream. The T3 plate is well situated horizontally. So as with the other T3 products I've worked, jack screws are added, and I'll be elongating the T3 mount holes to allow me vertical adjustment with the jack screws.
More to come.....
- oldeskewltoy
- Posts: 242
- Joined: Thu Jun 20, 2013 10:17 pm
Re: OST-028: Redline it baby....
oldeskewltoy wrote:
As is typical with the T3 plate it is the overall size of the gasket... NOT the port...
Because of this I have to make a choice....
up it is...
A lot more to come.....