'81 Corolla wagon fuel pump

[Limmie]

1981 Corolla wagon automatic. Won't start. Replaced fuel filter. No gas in filter. Took to auto shop which replaced pump and said still didn't work, therefore cam likely worn. Didn't get to speak to mechanic yet and guy at desk isn't creative type when it comes to taking care of 33 year old cars. He said only option other than engine rebuild was junking car. This car is in pretty good condition for Minnesota (barely any rust) and only 140k miles so I don't think it is ready for crusher (they don't part cars that old here). I asked desk guy about replacing fuel pump with electric. He said he didn't know if possible and would talk to mechanic Monday (tomorrow) and would also call scrap places.

I know from reading this site (e.g., viewtopic.php?f=43&t=1113&p=6684&hilit=fuel+pump#p6684) and others that it is possible to retrofit with electric and the more information I have the better the chance I can talk this car place into doing it. The last couple of jobs I had done with them they said they couldn't find parts. I checked online and found parts locally and an hour later walked into their place with part in hand, so that kind of sums up their enthusiasm level.

No mods on this car. As it came in 1981. From reading I gather:

- Need relatively low pressure pump (~4 psi?).
- Manual pump obviously depends upon engine speed. One web site said old one is 12GPH. The lowest I see for electric pumps is 25+ GPH. Concerns about carburettor flooding, pump burnout if sitting at city traffic lights?
- Seen mention of pre-pump fuel filter. Also pressure regulator (but some of these were for fancy pumps with heavy modified vehicles), and a "bypass" with return fuel flow to tank (not sure what that's for exactly and is starting to sound $$). Any of this extra necessary?

- Pump recommendations?
- Would be a lot easier to install in engine compartment but with the exception of a Huco/Webcon pump which would have to be imported from Germany via the UK the pumps seem to prefer to be installed near the tank. Sounds like low is better but can this be installed closer to the engine than back at the tank? Not sure about wire routing and don't want winter snow mounds ripping something off.
- The more I can tell the car place the better in terms of what exactly to do and what to order (may need to order myself) as they are not into coming up with solutions for old cars (would have the car done by somebody else but don't know who in this area and it would cost me another $75 to have it towed). The simpler the job the better (also better the chance I can talk my wife into letting me have the work done since she is saying let's junk and buy a new car).

[baldo]

Man damn is that the only mechanic shop in Minnesota!!!??? These cars are everywhere, just have to find them to get to know people that work on them. I mean engine rebuild or junk the car because you are not getting fuel!!!!!????? How is this place open and making money?
If you have a stock engine any cheap pump will do the job and you can put it in the front or close to the tank. Works either way, I have done it. Yes you need a 1 to 4 psi pump with no regulator. So if you have never worked on cars get some fuel hose, 1 foot should do. Now the carb has an entry line and fuel return line, you can cut the stock hose or just replace it with the new one because you have to fit the pump in between the hose. You need to put the pump on the entry side.
This is just to see if that is the problem. so cut the hose, put the pump in between the hose that you cut. Now you have two wires for the pump, one + and one -. I think you can figure that one out. Now disconnect the hose from the carb and get something to catch the fuel before you hook the pump up. Or another way to find out if you are getting gas is, if you look at the carb from the front it has a sight glass in the middle. If its empty you will see gas fill up half way of the sight glass. If there is gas there already you will need to take out the carb hose and catch the gas.
Think of it this way, you will save money by towing your car back home and fix it yourself than to buy parts and spend more money to tell the "mechanic" how to put it on a 33 year old car! Lots of people can help you better on this website than that place

[73te27]

I would install one of these near the tank and bypass the mechanical pump. All you need for a stock motor, no need for a regulator or anything else.
http://www.speedwaymotors.com/Universal ... fgod8poA1g

[Limmie]

I would install one of these near the tank and bypass the mechanical pump. All you need for a stock motor, no need for a regulator or anything else.

Thank you for the reference. I ended up buying a pump from the local NAPA. I had a coupon so it was only slightly more than the one you recommended and I was able to take it to the garage on Monday morning vs. wait.

I just called the garage now and asked about the car. They said they got it up and running but the problem is now it's getting too much fuel. The pump I purchased (http://www.napaonline.com/Catalog/Catal ... 0334654325) is rated 4-7 psi, 32 gph which I believe is pretty close to the specs. for the pump in your link. In another discussion somebody said the stock pump was 12 gph and of course an electric pump is going to run at a constant speed so it may just be pumping too fast. The garage said they are looking into the problem but I don't know how strong they are at troubleshooting. They said they don't usually do repairs other than straight part replacements but they have one mechanic who can work on this kind of thing. Suggestions?

Edit: This one (http://www.napaonline.com/Catalog/Catal ... 0334665228) is rated at 2-4 psi and 25 ghp and I could probably do an exchange.

[mikealike]

put a fuel regulator inline and turn it down just turn the pressure down a little.

[baldo]

That might be too high for stock carb, supposed to get a 1 to 4 psi pump. Like mike said, put a regulator on it. Let me ask you a question........... Are those "mechanics" charging you for their "hard work"?..............

[73te27]

I have seen many of those on stock motors, the square ones, pretty much all made by facet with different names. If your needle and seat is good, correct float adjustment, it should work fine. The one you installed, i have never seen personally, but in the specs under "important information" it says 4.5 psi which shouldnt overcome the needle and seat.
Napa used to sell a universal regulator, it was chrome with a dial knob for adjustment. Easy inline install close to carb.
And I agree, dont think your mechanics have much carb experience, they are probably young.

[BOBLOOK]

Those pump work fine !

[Limmie]

Thanks for all the replies. Here's how it has worked out so far.

The mechanic (who is looks younger than my car so may only very rarely have seen anything with a carburetor)) installed the first pump I purchased. I offered several times to take it back and get it replaced with the lower rated pump but they said they would call me if they wanted me to do that.

The mechanic installed the pump in line with the old one, but back near the gas tank. The "too much fuel" issue was apparently a result of being in line. Last week I asked for an update and the place told me the old pump was still working a bit. It would not work if the car sat for a long time and the line was empty but if the pump was primed by the electric one it was still working to some degree = too much fuel. Now maybe you guys can set me straight but was there any reason at all to not do as one of you suggested and completely bypass the old pump? Stick the outlet from the fuel filter onto the carburetor since all the pumping action was now being done back near the tank? I guess there's the question of what the old pump would do if sucking on air, but that part should be a closed system and as long as it doesn't affect the engine behavior then let it suck on air. Wrong/right?

What the garage ended up doing was removing the arm from the old pump and reinstalling it, basically to plug up the gap, but still leaving it in line. Is that what they should have done? If they remove the arm the pump isn't even going to suck air and it strikes me as pointless routing fuel through it. Does it make a difference and do I need to take it back? Possibly I could even do that myself since I can work on the car as long as it isn't a multi-day job or the car has to go up on ramps.

The new pump is loud! It sounds like a rapid tapping at the back of the car and when the car is idling the pump is louder than the engine. I'll admit I have not yet taken it on the freeway at 65 mph but being in a big city most of the driving this will see is city traffic. Is there some way to reduce the noise? From inside it really sounds like the muffler has a hole in it (but there isn't, and it's more a tapping noise), and you can easily hear it outside the car too (but it is louder inside).

Okay, I know you are curious so I'll 'fess up. Labor isn't broken down into units with a cost per hour but I'm guessing about 3-3.5 hours. They apparently also needed to replace "fouled" spark plugs, so perhaps that's 30 min. there. I guess some analysis was necessary though one could also argue once the new mechanical pump was diagnosed as not working it should have been straight forward putting in the electrical. It's not so outrageous I can make a scene, but I do want to make sure it was done properly in the end.

[Limmie]

Update:

Been doing regular city driving with this pump. If I haven't started the car in a couple of days the pump makes a loud knocking sound for about 8 seconds, then quietens down to a rapid tapping which you can hear clearly when idling but is drowned out by road noise at 55 mph. I figured I'd just live with the tapping noise. However, yesterday I was on the freeway and had driven at 60 mph for about 10 miles when I suddenly encountered stop and go traffic. At times I would be sitting in one place for a minute at a time. The car would cycle between a really loud knocking sound as loud as or even louder than the pre start-up knocking, then back to the tapping. It wasn't a regular cycle, kind of 15 seconds loud, then a minute or so regular, and although I would say it tended to disappear if I got going to 10 mph for 100 feet or so there were exceptions to the pattern. About half a tank of gas so it shouldn't be sucking air.

I have noticed changes in the pump noise if I go around corners but nothing this extreme.

Being in the city I have had to sit at lights for several minutes a lot but again never noticed anything as bad as yesterday. We were concerned enough that I pulled off the highway and beat my way home cross-country the rest of the way. The frequency of the knocking noise diminished to pretty much normal after that though it did occasional return when sitting at lights.

If I had to generalize in any manner I would say that once the car is started and is pretty much continuously moving and running at normal temperature it sounds fine. Yesterday it was running a slightly warmer (normal in this automatic) at highway speed, then I suddenly was in traffic where I did 3/4 of a mile in about 15 minutes and I would get this repeated knocking I normally only hear for a few seconds when I first start the car after it has been sitting for a few days. It got better but was still there a bit after returning to routine city driving. This morning I didn't hear it at all but I only drove it 3/4 of a mile to the NAPA store and the mechanic across the street so it didn't even warm to normal engine temps. I also didn't hear a knocking when I started the car but that seems to mostly happen when it has sat for a few days.

I talked to my mechanic about the above but this is the only retrofit they have done so they don't really know what is "normal". They have no idea about the knocking sound and both they and the guy who sold me the pump at NAPA say an electric fuel pump shouldn't be making that kind of noise.

My question still stands as to whether or not the old pump should have been completely bypassed in installing this one. They removed the pump arm so it no longer pumps but the fuel is still routed through the pump. I don't know if it could be causing some sort of blockage or feedback pressure or something. I asked the guy in the shop today who isn't the mechanic who installed it but definitely wasn't born after carburetors were replace by fuel injection like the installer guy. He said it may have been left in there because of a return circuit but he really didn't know with this model and it had been a while since he had worked on cars himself. Anybody out there in 3TC land know anything about this? Could this be causing the knocking or is it likely to be a bad pump, or something to do with the installation?